Avalon guitars uses this bracing design, and if you don't like ringing harmonics and lingering sustain, don't do it!!!
I've play an Avalon, and I know what the tone is like..
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:26 am ] |
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What is double X bracing and does anyone have photos? thanks -j. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 12:40 am ] |
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I have seen some on the site. but in simple terms it is replacing traditional tone bars with a second x-brace below the bridge plate. |
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| Author: | Sam Price [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:45 am ] |
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Avalon guitars uses this bracing design, and if you don't like ringing harmonics and lingering sustain, don't do it!!!
I've play an Avalon, and I know what the tone is like.. |
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| Author: | paul harrell [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:21 am ] |
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I usually use a double X on my fingerstyle instruments, especially on cedar and redwood tops because it gives good support behind the bridge where the top usually bellys up. I have been very happy with the sound with this pattern. My finger braces are not part of the lower X the way Sam's are. I don't know what difference that would make in the sound, I have seen it done both ways. Peace, Paul 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:33 am ] |
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J, I was looking for and image of my double x tops but I'm in the middle of switching computers and can't find a thing. It looks almost exactly like the one Sam posted. I build double x tops exclusively for two years. I've since moved away from them and am building with a standard finger brace design. I found that the double x was great for a strummer and even better for someone with a heavy hand. But I found that it tightened up the top too much for a light touch and finger picker. So, in my opinion, it tightens up the to a little too much. |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:46 am ] |
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Paul, I would think that it would tighten up the top a lot unless you shave them down to almost nothing. This, is however, going to be for a bass and a baritone guitar, so the tensions are going to add significantly more stress to the top. I was thinking the double X brace would be more efficient than beefing up the typical single x brace and tone bars. Does that sound right? -j. |
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 2:49 am ] |
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Well, yes, it did tighten the top a lot but I guess I was thinking "a bit" too much for my tastes. I did shave them much lower that the main x but still couldn't get it to open up the way I wanted it to. I think it will be a great option for long scale, high tension instruments. Be mindful of where the bridge will be when you lay it out. You don't want bridge pins going through braces. 
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| Author: | GregG [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:15 am ] |
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No pictures.....but mine looked almost exactly like Paul's picture. I used a double "X" top on my last guitar and it sounded great both strumming and fingerstyle. I felt it was better in all respects compared to the traditional "X" bracing used on the previous one. Different B/S woods may have contributed to tonal differences as well, so take the opinion FWIW. Greg |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 6:44 am ] |
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[QUOTE=j.Brown] Paul, I would think that it would tighten up the top a lot unless you shave them down to almost nothing. This, is however, going to be for a bass and a baritone guitar, so the tensions are going to add significantly more stress to the top. I was thinking the double X brace would be more efficient than beefing up the typical single x brace and tone bars. Does that sound right? -j.[/QUOTE] J, I don't know about bass guitars but a baritone guitar should have the same string tension as a normal scale guitar if designed properly. You don't want to be beefing up the braces at all. By the way here's a pic of my baritone bracing which happens to be a sort of variant of the double X but with the bottom X bar "broken":  |
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| Author: | j.Brown [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 8:36 am ] |
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Dave, Thats what I originally thought, but according to the D'Addario website, the baritone string tension adds up to almost 240 lbs total of tension. Thats a heckuva lot more than the typical 5 string tension of 160-180 lbs.Thats an increase in stress of almost 50%. Maybe its not reality or something, but its right on the companies spec sheets. http://www.daddario.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_char t.pdf http://www.daddario.com/Resources/JDCDAD/images/tension_char t.pdf Let me know if I'm reading these incorrectly. Specifically the EXP 23's for a baritone string. Thanks -j. -j. |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:12 am ] |
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J, If you want to put those gauge of strings on then so be it, but my contention is that you don't need to. For B-B tuning on my 28.9" scale baritone I recommend string gauges of 0.014", 0.018" (or 0.023"w), 0.030", 0.039", 0.047", 0.065" (0r 0.070"). These are D'Addario EJ15's with the first string removed and an 0.070" added. This gives great tone and volume on the guitars I build. The string tension is pretty close to inbetween a set of EJ16's and EJ17's on a 25.5" scale length guitar in standard tuning. Even if you go for the heavier sets and 230lbs plus tension I would not beef up the bracing - same arguments as for making a 12 string. I recently made a 10 string guitar-cittern with 230lb string tension and the bracing height and profile etc were as per normal. Sounds wonderful. I would pay a lot of attention, however, to keeping the bridge on under such tension and also long term neck stability. I suspect I am in the minority of baritone builders with my views here, but hey variety is the spice of life. The proof of the pudding is in what I hear from the guitars I have made. I have a recording of my euro spruce/braz rw bari on my website here. Go to Treebeard on the page. |
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| Author: | Steve Saville [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:35 am ] |
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[QUOTE=j.Brown] Dave, Thats what I originally thought, but according to the D'Addario website, the baritone string tension adds up to almost 240 lbs total of tension. Thats a heckuva lot more than the typical 5 string tension of 160-180 lbs.Thats an increase in stress of almost 50%. Maybe its not reality or something, but its right on the companies spec sheets. [/QUOTE] I think you might have done something wrong - either that or I'm messed up. I ran through the calculations. Here is what I found based on that site and doing the calcs. Increasing from a 25.5 to a 27.5 scale length, keeping the same diameter string at the same pitch increased tension 16.3%. Increasing from a 25.5 to a 27.5 scale length, keeping the same diameter string dropping pitch 1 whole step decreased tension 7.6%. I think you messed up in reading the chart - you can't do that for a baritone because the tension on the chart is calculated on a 25.5" scale length. To get the tension for a baritone, you have to do the calculations. |
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| Author: | Alan Carruth [ Fri Sep 15, 2006 10:30 am ] |
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I did an experiment comparing 'regular' and 'double X' braced tops on two 'matched' guitars a few years ago. The bracing was the same size on both instruments, just placed differently. At the ASIA meeting that year the luthiers prefered the double-X topped guitar by a significant margin. Most people though the double X would be beetter for fingerstyle. It can work if you do it right. |
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| Author: | Dave-SKG [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:11 am ] |
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I double-x brace my backs-sometimes. I like it. I think it makes it easier to tune the back.: 
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| Author: | Pwoolson [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:38 am ] |
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Dude, those are some sweet clamps! Where ja git em? 
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| Author: | peterm [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 2:46 am ] |
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Speaking of clamps.... Paul, i think you're do for some more!
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:52 am ] |
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Is that a white Hiscox case Dave? Colin |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Sat Sep 16, 2006 3:54 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Colin S] Is that a white Hiscox case Dave? Colin[/QUOTE] Colin, Yes - well ivory actually. They do them in all sorts of colours now. |
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